1/2 Run DKP

[Dookz]

I am not sure this is even my place to say anything, and just up front, I am not a greedy loot SOB by any means. I just think we need to do something different with DKP when we run 1/2 a raid dkp and last 2 bosses Roll. There are some inconsistencies here.

OK, so last night we had 2 PuGer's in the Raid, so it was roll. Only, those who won on Friday night and spent DKP could not roll, There is the problem. last night 2 Kin memebers got Set Items for Zero DKP, while some of us spent 300+ on friday. If it is going to be roll and no DKP spent, then everyone should get a shot at the free items.

DKP works by rewarding those who attend and accumulate points. They then spend that DKP effectively (not always) giving the next person with highest DKP a shot at the next item. This cannot happen if items are going for free and those who spent DKP earlier in the week cannot roll. If it is going to be a free item, aka roll, I think everyone should get to roll, regardless of winning earlier in the week. Afterall, they spent DKP earlier in the week and the winners of the roll did not have to.

Maybe I am just seeing this wrong, it just seems to me there are some inequities there. Thoughts, suggestions, flames?

Thanks,

Dookz

[Salvation]

It is your place to say, and I wholeheartedly agree. We will be working to develop a solution shortly.

I'm not going to lie, I feel sometimes our DKP system is an experiment to which we are all guinea pigs. These trial and error runs with you guys voicing your opinions will only help us improve or change what's already in place.

I think its pretty evident none of us are loot mongers, considering we often allocate items manually to those we feel are deserving (last night being a prime example between Grapho and Laredor).

So please just bear with us, we will work out a solution that is as fair as possible given the ever changing conditions that are presented to us. And please keep voicing your thoughts and ideas, this is more your kinship than ours.

[moose]

I couldn't have said it any better than Salvation. I could have said it with much more snark and sarcasm however.

I have a feeling this problem may solve itself very shortly.

stay tuned.

you're welcome.

g.

[corkus]

i completely agree, and we're working on a reasonable compromise. stay tuned

[Dookz]

I was talking to Serna last night and she had some pretty good ideas. I just want to throw out there an alternative DKP system called Zero-Sum. I have used it extensively in the past and it works pretty nicely at evenly distributing loot. Not saying this is what we should do, just wanted you Officers to take a look at it. It assign set values to drops so even if you won the roll in a PuG you would know exactly what you would be spending for DKP. But like I said, Serna had some pretty good alternative Ideas.

[Roxology]

A solution has been created until we come up with something better, and most if not all of the dkp rules have been reworded so we are all clear on what goes on. I will post the modified version later this week

[Salvation]

Sept 3, 2008 10:22:40 GMT -5 Dookz said:

...I just want to throw out there an alternative DKP system called Zero-Sum...

I did some reading on this and other various DKP systems yesterday after my initial post in this thread. The system seems pretty solid, and I actually proposed some ideas from it to get a feel what the other officers thought. The biggest issue we found was we already have established DKP accounts, and when it's in full effect, our system actually works quite well. We will try to fix the minor problems as they come instead of overhauling the whole system, at least for now until something unforeseen or nonadjustable calls for a change.

[amyclas]

I understand why we established the no rolling on an item if you have won on a previous night, but I do agree with Dooks in his first post. One problem I can foresee with our current system (I know the new rules will be posted shortly) is players only needing the helm and shoulders fight up to that point on Friday night then end the raid. When we raid again the next night they have a shot to roll on the items for free and not spend DKP. Basically it gives no motivation to finish in one night. That being said here is something that aggravated me on Monday. Now I won the gloves on Friday and showed up to the raid just to raid so i wasn't expecting any gear. But one reason I did show up other than the thrill of victory was to get the DKP points. I think that even if we do keep keep it so you can not roll after you have won on a previous night kin members in attendance should at least get the DKP we would have earned since 10/12 member in the raid were kin and in my opinion that makes it a kin run not a PUG. Just some thought.

[Salvation]

That is one of the things we've proposed to keep attendance up. As a DKP penalty to compensate for the rolled item, no DKP would be awarded to the winner of the roll (it is undecided if this should be in addition to a DKP cost pre-set for the item for rolls only) while all others on the DKP roster would earn the respective points for that lock regardless if there are non-DKP members in the raid, as long as the majority of the raid is.

[Dookz]

AC,

Serna's ideas addressed this i believe. Like you said they will be reposted but from what I recall, will will get DKP for the run on the second night, the winners of the roll will not. But you bring up an Interesting point. If we do it in 2 nights, the second night being a PuG, it gives me incentive NOT to bid on any items the first night at all. Then, come the second night if it is PuG'ed then I get a chance to get an Item for next to no dkp. there wont be any bidding so it will cost you what, 40dkp?

What will be the deciding factor here, is how much DKP we earn that second night, it has to be a high enough number that my decision may be swayed. Why pay 310 DKP friday night when I can let someone else spend that 310 dkp, maybe get a 40dkp item on the second night, then next week one less person to bid on the item that went for 310 dkp the week before. Of course I hold all judgement in reserve until I see the new rules. But, 40dkp fixed vs. bidding on first night where prices can go sky high? I choose second night everytime.


EDIT: By the way, the fact that all of us play together everyweek, there is no reason the Rift should not be done in a 4-5 hour run. We definetly have the skill. This would totally eliminate this problem.

[Salvation]

It should be also noted that the second night deal will hopefully become a laughable memory. The rift can be done in one night, and now that we have each boss down to a science, it is time we start picking up speed. We have gotten to the Balrog in under 5 hours in the past, only to wipe because we did not know what the hell we were doing.

[Edit] ha...got it up as I was writing Dookz [/Edit]

[Roxology]

Two things for this post. First is if we all start at 9 like i say, i think we can be up to thrang by midnight, but no more putzing around waiting for everyone, if we have 8 we start. We work well enough together that barz and zurm can go down with 8 people.

Secon thing is this dkp issue. To start only a few people need to finish their set with the shoulders, and all of us aren't dicks. If Sal needs his shoulders im assuming Moose or Amyclas won't bid against him if they arent close to a full set. That being the point, if those three were the only ones allowed to bid on the item and only Sal actually bids, how much will he lose. 10 DKP. That being said here is the plan for dkp when a PUG is present. You will lose all your dkp accumulated for the lock (thats the least you will lose, trail run is this week). But that is not all. You will then lose 10 x the amount of kin members who are rollling (only kin members who can roll are ones who didnt win a teal). So if there is one kin member rolling, 10dkp subtracted from the winner. Because if only one person bids then he will only lose 10 dkp. But if 4 kin members roll, then the winner loses 40dkp. So roll winners get penialized and everyone else gets rewarded

So for a balrog you can win a min of 50 dkp based on our standards. And lets say Amyclas, Lerador, Salvation, Grapho, Serna, and Dookz roll on wigfeld. Dookz wins that roll so he loses a total of 100dkp, because (50 + 10 x 5). Of course all 11 of us will be rolling for wig, so we will lose more then 50 points.

That is the solution for now. And at this moment, you can always expect bidding to go higher on the first night, less people need just the shoulders then do the leggings.

[Roxology]

Oh as an aside, Lerador will not be rolling on any other items ever, he does not want wigfeld so . . . this new rule I added will most likely not even have to be used.

[Salvation]

Sept 4, 2008 11:13:50 GMT -5 Roxology said:

...and all of us aren't thingys...

Board censorship for the win even the almighty is subject to its wrath.

[Roxology]

I have no idea what i was thinking when i wrote that